We're Back and More Heated Than Ever with Kristen and Raya

We wanted to come back with a bang, and what better way than to spend almost an hour talking about everyone’s favorite gay hockey show, ⁠Heated Rivalry⁠! On this special season two premiere episode, ⁠Kristen⁠ and ⁠Raya⁠ (the resident Gen X/Gen Z duo) flex their PhDs in HR by deep-diving into the storyline, the minute details, and the theories that make the show so compelling. With the addition of the audio from their favorite ⁠Heated Rivalry edit⁠, if you’re a fan of Shane and Ilya, this is the episode for you.

Automatically Transcribed Transcript

Welcome to Write Now, a podcast from Rise Literary about what it takes to Write the Good Fight.

Welcome back, everyone. We are here for season two of the all new branded or rather rebranded podcast of Write Now, formally known as Write the Good Fight. And I am so excited for today's launch episode, which is really funny because when we launched Write the Good Fight, we actually had a live evening event in Ojai with our incredible author, Gertrude Lyons, who's the author of Rewrite the Mother Code and the ever prolific Rob Bell.

And we were like, what should we do to really launch season two? What's the biggest explosion we can do? And we realized the most exciting conversation we could ever possibly have on the planet with two individuals would be a heated rivalry podcast with myself and our content director, Raya Whittington.

So here we are. We were literally we're gonna have Jon Bernthal for the first launch and we're like, no, all we need now is heated rivalry.

And that seems fitting. That feels fitting. It feels right.

I think largely because it's the only thing anyone talks about, at least in my circle and in my world. And it's the only thing that I talk or think about. So of course, it made sense that we would discuss this stunning and gorgeous show that changed our lives forever.

Forever. Forever. Forever.

So yeah, Raya was the first to heat in our Rise Literary family. And I had kept seeing stuff about it. I mean, like all of us, right?

But this is about a month ago where it was just beginning to really like bubble up, like the Golden Globes had happened. And I was at a hotel one night. It was like 10 p.m. And I was about to like go to bed in an hour or whatever.

And I was like, oh, I'll just watch one episode of this silly gay hockey show. And cut to four o'clock in the morning where I am still, I'm finishing up that silly gay hockey show only realizing that I've quite possibly just watched The Greatest Love Story written in my lifetime. Yeah.

And acted in my lifetime and both as a storyteller and as a forever romantic, which just like, what the fuck was that? What just happened? And I thought like most things, like, I'm not a fan.

And Ray and I talk a lot about this because she is, she's been a professional fan before. She was a one dear. She is like, she came up in the generation where there was fandom because you guys had social media.

So like, you know, connecting with other fans was so much easier. I grew up in a world where there wasn't really like, you could watch MTV. Like that was, yeah, it was a, it was a one way relationship with your fanary.

And so I don't have that in my DNA and I've never been, I'm not a joiner. Like I've never made sourdough. Like I've never been in a book club.

So this world of like, hey, I watched this TV show, which was life changing and amazing. But now I've actually entered into like this wild world of fandom because I cannot get the fucking thing out of my system, Raya. What?

How do I survive this? I have a job to do. I have children.

What happens next?

Does this go on forever?

I would say that it does. And the only reason that I would say that it does is because like I still get one direction edits on my For You page. And if I get told that there's a new one direction fanfic, I will go run and read it.

Like, no, it's still a part of my life.

I think because the band dismantled, it was like a little bit easier to step away. So it might be one of those things where like once the series is done, like they finished all three or four seasons, however long they choose for to go, that you get a bit of distance because there's not new content. But you're screwed until that's kind of over because you will obsess over it for a year, then they're going to give you an entire new season.

I don't even know. I'm going to have to take two months off of work when that like season comes out. Like that's what I've now realized.

I'm like, oh, I'm going to have to schedule in Heated Rivalry. And I think, you know, I mean, I've definitely been both super engaged with it in a way that I do not engage in community efforts. Outside of like political activism, which I guess is its own version of fandom.

But like, it has been interesting. Like I've really never been part of like parasocial internet in that way. Like, I don't like comment on strangers pages.

I mean, I probably have like a bigger social media following if I did. But that's just like, I don't know how to do that kind of engagement. So it's not something I've ever really had in my life.

So it's been really like I'm on threads. I know you're on tick. You're on the TikTok.

I'm on TikTok.

What do they call Heated Rivalry on TikTok? Is it Heated Talk or you guys got a nickname?

No, I don't think so. I've not seen anything. I think it's just like you're just obsessed with it and just hashtag Heated Rivalry.

I actually wonder how many videos are under that hashtag because it's got to be absurd at this point. I see probably 40 edits a day and I've never seen a repeat.

So I don't know.

Until I sent you the original trailer yesterday. So this is what is, I mean, oh, we have so much. There's so much to unpack here from so many different angles on storytelling.

So for anyone who's listening, the thing about Heated Rivalry and if you haven't watched it and you're like, I haven't, there's no reason for me to listen to this episode. That's a lie because what this show has done is actually shown what like amazing storytelling is from every element. Like, and so I know that Raya and I, Raya and I actually already recorded this podcast once.

And then the recording didn't work out. And then Raya said yesterday, she was like, well, I'm not angry about that because that just means we get to talk about Heated Rivalry for another hour and I died. I told Terry about that later.

I was like, that is the funniest fucking thing. And also, yes, ditto. So I want to, we'll show this in the thing just because I want everybody who has never seen Heated Rivalry, I feel very comfortable of people watching this edit because I feel like this is the thing to convince you.

So we're going to watch our, we're going to watch my favorite Chasing Cars edit, which you know who edited it? Do you have the name? Yeah.

His name is Alexi and we can tag him. He's a creator on TikTok. Somebody actually reposted it again today and they said, I really think this is the best edit because what it really does show is why we love this show and what we're really all truly watching for.

And yes, there's sex, everybody's heard. Although sometimes when you rewatch those sex scenes, that the first time you saw them, you were like, whoa. Then you're like, actually, this is very discreet.

Like, it's everything happens off camera.

It's so much more pain. I truly, I think that people thought it was going to be like, oh my gosh, gay men having sex. And it's like, it is.

But like, for the most part, it isn't actually all that crazy. It fades in and out a lot. Like, they leave a lot of the intimacy for the characters.

They're not trying to invite you into these two men's sex life. They're just saying that they have one. But that's kind of it.

They're inviting you into their kissing life, and that's what everybody's watching for, because the kissing is like a third character. I mean, the kissing should like win an Oscar.

I mean, Ilya's hand on Shane's chin constantly is like the craziest thing ever. And the amount of edits I've seen just on like, them being like, Ilya holding Shane's face. I'm like, yeah, yeah.

That's a whole entity of like 20 minutes of content alone.

Yeah. Well, because that's where the porn is. The porn part of it is actually that it's intimacy porn, because it's actually showing people in love being intimate, and loving, and passionate for one another.

And like, there's no dicks, you know? So it's not like you're not actually watching porn, you know? Like there's no, in fact, there's not a lot of even action happening below the belt.

You're aware it's happening below the belt. But other than a few scenes, you're not really seeing much. And so, it's funny how like, I think some people, although, like we were saying the other day, like, let it be about the sex, though, you know?

It's also like, that's fine, too. And I think that, like, we've seen a real pendulum swing around sex in media. And I think your generation, if nobody is aware, we are the Gen Z, Gen X dynamic of Rise Literary.

We're the same person 24 years apart. So I am double Raya's age, which is, like, the cutest thing on the planet. We won't ever get this again, Raya.

I know. This is it.

This is it. This is our one time in the history of our lives that I will get to be double your age. But I do think that, like, so much sexualized content was made exploitatively over, like, the last hundred since they started filming, right?

Since live-action filming. We never really got to see well-resourced, you know, respectful, thoughtful, loving sexuality because what was happening behind the scenes was always really exploitative. And so I think what has made this show so dynamic is that you can feel that what was happening behind the scenes was just as loving and thoughtful and conscious as what's happening in the scene, and it makes it feel like really safe content.

Yes. Yeah. No, I think, and we talk about how insane it is because they filmed, it was like 37 days.

I think that like 90 percent sure it's 37 days that they had, and they really barely knew each other. And to just click with a person enough that you're comfortable enough to, honestly, like it's not even the sex, it's like to actively fall in love on screen with the person in front of you. And like you watch the interviews and you're like, they adore each other, right?

That's such a one in a million relationship that you get, especially as an actor, to meet someone and be like, oh, you're my person, great, let's create also the world's best television show ever. Like that just does not happen. And Jacob Tierney, you blessed us all.

And thank you so much because you knew. And they just, they really, they had like magic in a bottle. And like, not magic, lightning.

Lightning.

Lightning in a bottle.

And magic in a bottle. There's a lot of magic there.

There's a lot of magic there. It was crazy. And I think the love that they have for each other absolutely shines through.

And I think that's why everyone is so addicted, is because it is two people who adore each other and a person who adores them, all creating this show.

Yeah, I mean, I sent you, I was telling Vianna, our chief creative officer this morning, because all conversations lead back to Heated Rivalry, and she's never seen it. I mean, it's funny, so half of our team has never seen it. And so it's just the half of the team that has seen it, constantly referencing it to the other half of the team, that is just like, I don't, and I don't know why they haven't, it's so frustrating.

I mean, I actually called Lauren this morning to be like, will you just fucking watch Heated Rivalry already? But I had sent you that, did you see the BTS that I sent you of them like goofing around? So there's like this behind the scenes, and it's like one of the most serious scenes of the show.

And you can see, because they're in the outfit that they're wearing in that scene. But the two actors are like on the deck, and obviously like they're filming them from inside, just like someone's filming them on their phone, and they're just like fucking around the deck. And I think they're pretending to be loons.

Like I think they're pretending to be the like Canadian duck. And so they're literally-

The Canadian wolf bird?

The Canadian wolf bird. So they're acting like geese, and like laughing so hard that at one point you see sort of Hudson fall out of frame, because Connor has cracked him up so much that he like can't even hold it together. And I was saying like, that's like the joy of like, I mean, that's the joy of I think that's what we try to create here too, like in our company.

It's like when you're having fun behind the scenes, that translates into the story that you're telling. And I think that's true for like writers and any kind of storyteller that like, if you're writing out of dread, if you're writing out of like frustration or trauma, or like, I hate this, like, that translates for your reader, you know? Where like, when you are able to find, and I know it doesn't mean that you always have to tell a happy story.

I mean, Heated Rivalry is a very sad story, too. And yet, like, when you see that that's the fun that they were having, you see why it feels so dynamic when you watch it on screen.

Absolutely. I think what's kind of going on with them specifically, too, is that it almost felt like they were acting from a place of survival. They had nothing to lose because they had nothing there to begin with.

Like, they weren't huge actors yet. Like, they were just like, we have nothing, and this, if this works out, this is all we have ever wanted. And obviously, they were, like, working restaurant work before this, and then now they're huge, huge Hollywood stars.

So, like, when you are in that space of just, like, I will do anything because this is my dream, I think that translates to the passion of them both coming from the same place of being like, this is all I've ever wanted, and I will do anything and be anything to get there. And luckily, they had such a safe and positive space to do that. So, they got to be the fullest extent of themselves as actors and as people, and then make this show that translates so well.

Like, the desperation is clearly there, like, in the show, you can feel it, but it's not, like, off-putting. It's like, wow, you care so much, and, like, that is such a beautiful thing. We don't see that in art as much anymore, which is heartbreaking.

I mean, with the uptick of, like, AI, we don't see a lot of want for, like, a new story and a story that is so heartfelt and arguably simple, simple and just honest. There's not a lot of money going into things like that. Clearly, I mean, we know that budget was low for that show, but oh, the things you can do with only $3 million, you know?

Yeah. Well, and I think that it actually, like, it liberated everybody, you know, because there weren't as many cooks in the kitchen. And I think, you know, when you say, like, their survival piece, I think it's true.

It's like when we, I mean, they were really working from, like, a much more, like, limbic place. Like, they weren't, they didn't have that prefrontal cortex of protection that happens when you've actually, like, have stuff on the line or, you know, are worried about, like, your reputation or are concerned about how this might impact something else. Like, they were just there with, like, a full open, like, truly somatic experience, which is, again, like, that's what's translating.

People aren't getting hooked into it just because it's, like, oh, that's a good story, though that it's true. It is. And forbidden love is a trope that we've read.

I mean, that's Romeo and Juliet. Like, you know, there's, we've loved forbidden love stories, you know, forever, but I also recognize that there's a lot of forbidden love stories all over, you know, TV, and we're not sitting there watching them on Lifetime every night, right? Like, what actually elevated this into something that's creating this level of fandom, and we've been chatting about this a lot recently, is this, like, eros, that, like, it connects you into eros in a way that feels like it's your own lived experience, which is, like, they weren't translating eros.

They were transmitting it. And, like, eros is that, like, yes, it can be erotic, but it's also passion. It's romantic love.

It's our dreams. It's our hopes. It's this, like, vat of, like, just positive human energy.

And I think what Heated Rivalry did was that they literally took eros, like, and took a plug from it and plugged it into the viewer because those boys weren't translating eros in the way that they would have had they not been in survival, right? They were translating it from such a somatic place that it became really clear and connected to the viewer. And that's what's made it just so, like, explosive and raw for everybody who...

I think, you know, there are obviously some people who don't have the same experiences as you and I have and all of our other fellow Heated Rivalry fans out there. But, like, I do think that for people who recognize that, like, they recognize that experience and either they're wanting it in their lives or they're, like, wanting to see it expressed in some way, like, really connect into it. Yeah.

So we needed this. I think, like, we deserved it.

God damn it.

I was I was talking to my life coach and she was she was telling me she was like, I was at a Tinder event and Tinder was like, a word of the year for 2026 is hopeful. And I was like, where are you getting that from the dating sphere? That's not happening.

But then like, low key, I was like, wait, maybe it is hopeful because Heated Rivalry came out at the end of that last year. And I was like, maybe there is hope for like a love that isn't toxic and horrendous. There's hope for a very simple and comforting love to exist out there because I saw two gay boys do it.

So maybe there's hope for the rest of us. I think it really shifted. Well, I wouldn't even say shifted because I think a lot of my generation, especially women have been feeling that like men aren't pulling their weight and aren't being emotionally there for women anymore.

And that has caused a lot of like disconnectiveness between men and women in my generation. We're not dating, we're staying away from each other actively. A lot of my friends always come to me and they're like, love doesn't exist.

It's so obvious that love doesn't exist because if it would, then we wouldn't all be here. And I think that that show came out at such a time of like, it not only gave hope for love, but it reenforced our ideas of what we deserve in love. There's a reason why we're all single.

Like we're not crazy for wanting someone to remember what our favorite drink is and have it at their house when we come over. That's so simple. That's something that women would do for each other innately because we care and we pay attention. And it's like that kind of attentiveness is something that we really do deserve from men. And if that's not being offered, then we just don't need them. But then it also was like, but there is hope because even in this fictional story, they do it so well, and it's so clear that they would actually probably even do that for each other in real life.

And so those men do exist. There is hope for a world where men are kind and attentive and not just constantly out to get you and ruin your vibe for the entire year.

Yeah. And I think that's where, like, as I was saying, like, the fandom and the parasocial relationship with Hudson and Connor is, like, because you see those characters so much reflected in how they behave off screen that you're like, it's not just Ilya and Shane. It's also these two humans that are behaving in much the same way, like, in their lives and the way that they present and their relationship with each other, which is so lovely.

And, you know, whatever their sexual orientations or preferences are, like, they still have this, like, loving romantic dynamic, even if they only have a platonic relationship. And it goes to show, like, I think that idea of, like, romantasy, right, which has become actually a big genre. But, like, but romantasy is also something that happens in our daily life of, like, how we can connect into the romantic, even in a platonic situation.

And I think that, like, romance kind of died a bit in the last, like, 20 years, because life just got, I mean, honestly, I don't think it's been the last 20 years. I really think it was from 2016. I think with this horrible human being who's currently president, like, when you have such a, like, vile and just disgusting narrative going on in your world, one, it's hard to want to make babies in that, right?

And the whole purpose of pheromones, which is the basis of romantic love, is for procreation and the survival of the species. If what you see, if you see that we're driving off a fucking cliff and the person driving the car is actually, like, a murderous cannibalistic pedophile, you're kind of, like, not going to really, not going to really fuck anyone to have babies in that, like, you know? Like, if you're a good person, you're like, mm, I don't know, I'm okay.

And, like, and therefore the ability to connect into romantic love is, like, you actually, like, biologically can't do it because romantic love, its ultimate expression is procreation, right? So, like, that's why we have the pheromone. Like, that's why we have the biological feeling.

And so I do think that, like, especially for your generation, I am so sorry, you guys. I, like, I could weep on, like, the world that you've had to, like, be in because for those of us that got to, and not that it was any better, I understand, like, like, all these horrible things existed. And I grew up in the Reagan generation.

It's not, but, like, it just wasn't in your face. And, I mean, even the horrible president existed during that time. But, like, he was, he was certainly, he wasn't leading the fucking free world, right?

So, like, he wasn't starting World War III. That wasn't going on.

That wasn't you guys' vibe.

No, it wasn't. And there was definitely, like, again, I know there was a horrible bunch of shady shit going on in the 90s, but what we were all consuming was hopeful. Like, if you had started the year with hopeful, you wouldn't have been like, that's crazy bananas.

You would have been like, yes, it is. And now it's like, whoa, that's nutso, you know?

That's fantastical. Like, that's not even a reality I've touched or seen in so long.

In so long. And I think that, like, it's just so sad that, like, obviously, you guys would not be able to tap into what for us was kind of like a just a given that at some point you were going to fall madly in love with somebody and that was part of, that was like part of being 24, Raya. That was like-

Which is not a conversation that I'm having with my friends. We're like, should we all buy a compound? We'll all adopt kids, we'll get sperm donors and we'll just do this together because there's actually no option of doing it with a man.

Like, that's just not happening anymore. And I think that that is both very saddening, but also I'm just like, if I have to spend the rest of my life with the girls, there are absolutely worse things. I could spend the rest of my life with a man that hates my guts.

And I'll just, I'll stick with the girls. I'll stick with the girls because it's more peaceful that way. But I would like to think that love does exist.

And we see it, we see it and it is there. It's just a lot rarer than it I think it maybe once was, or maybe it's always been rare. And it is just a time and place thing because I think a lot of people just got married to get married, but now it's being selective and weirdly having like the rights, even though they're slowly being stripped back, but like the rights to pick who you end up with.

And maybe that's just what we're seeing. And it's not that there's any more or less love than there ever was. But maybe it's just that now we have the ability to choose and the awareness of what's out there that we're being more cautious.

I don't know. I don't really know where the trend is really coming from, but it definitely is stark for us, for sure.

Well, and I think, because all roads lead back to Heated Rivalry.

As they should.

And I do think that it has been that reminder, though, of like, it's still worth seeking, you know? And like, I mean, I know. I mean, I literally wrote a book about it because I was really, like, I had had the experience of like, actually being in love, like, multiple times in my early, like, like, I was really lucked out.

Like, I fell in love with my first boyfriend, genuinely. Pheromone, Heated Rivalry, like, love. Like, adore, still adore that man.

He's awesome. And then, like, again in college. And then again, when I was 24, like, I met a man and fell in love with him.

And then I didn't for a long time. And I was in, I mean, that's why I laugh when you were like saying, like, at 24, you guys are, like, building the commune. I was like, at 32, I was.

Like, I definitely, though, like, I then wandered in some, like, bad lands for a very long time until I decided to, like, date my now husband, which, like, Terry and I would both say, like, we did not have that kind of passionate, like, fall in love type relationship. Like, we had a really good friendship and we, like, get along really well. And it just was like, hey, this is, and we had fun, like, and I think having fun together, that's still our love language.

Terry and I, like, always have fun together. So, I mean, we haven't funned together enough to, like, continue hanging out. So.

That's awesome, Terry. Yeah, we're still homies.

We're still homies. We will be forever homies.

Yeah.

But, but the, you know, but like that idea of, like, romantic love as, like, we are getting to see in Heated Rivalry, I think wherever you are in your age, and like, I was saying, like, you're on TikTok, Heated Rivalry, but I'm on threads, which is a very different demographic. So it's like, literally, like, it's a bunch of 40-year-olds, like, very few, some 30-year-olds, mainly 40-year-olds, 50-year-olds, six-year-olds, and 70-year-olds. And that's crazy.

Like, regularly, like, a lot of 70-year-olds, like, into 80s.

It's crazy. I love the multi-generational, like, it spans everybody. It's in everybody.

Yeah.

It does. I know you and I were joking, and I was like, are they showing it in, like, retirement communities? They're like, here's our Heated Rivalry viewing tonight.

Kind of want to pull up. Like, I wonder, because we live in, like, Ohio, I wonder if, like, the Gables does it. And if they do have a Heated Rivalry night, can I go?

Go.

Can I go and can I ask the grandmas and grandpas what they think? And can they tell me the stories about their life that they feel most connected to Heated Rivalry?

Like, that's a dream.

Is that what we should be doing? Like, is that our community service project for this year? Raya and Kristen host Heated Rivalry Nights at all of the local, like, like, assisted livings in town.

Oh my god, I love this. This might be our jam. I mean, I like everything.

I could totally see some guy like named Bobby, like, I remember when Jim and I fell in love, but it was a different time.

Yeah. And I want to, I love those stories. I mean, like, it's just, I think love in a lot of ways, like, especially in the queer community, has always been forbidden, right?

It's always been a hidden thing. And arguably right now, it's kind of like we have a bit of time. Like, I was alive when gay marriage was legalized.

That blows my mind occasionally. I'm just like, oh, it took that long for them to be like, yeah, it's okay to like love who you want to love. Like, that is such an insane concept to me.

You just, I've never understood it. But I think now we're seeing, like, a rollback in all of those rights that we just got. So, like, in my lifetime, I've seen them come in and go out with, like, the tide, basically, which to have rights be that flippin is insane.

But I think this show is just one of those things of like, yeah, it is heartbreaking that love can be hidden and that sometimes it has to be. But also, that doesn't mean that that love isn't so beautiful and still vibrant still. I think that once Shane officially came out to his parents, like, I think that was a moment where I was like, even if you're hiding it from the rest of the world, while that sucks and while I want you both to be out and proud, it is one of those things where it's like, wow, the people who care are there.

And people who need to know do know. And they're in that circle with you and they're supporting you and they love you. And like, kind of in like the nicest way, everybody else can fuck off.

Like, you get to spend like your life with this person, whether the rest of the world knows that or not. And so it just, it really is, shows how persistent love can be, if it's meant to.

Yeah, and I think it also shows, and I love that idea, and I think there's so much about like, we can be personally liberated even in an oppressive system. And sometimes we just have to be, because there's no other choice, right? And not that we don't want a liberated system, like, viva la revolution every single day of the week, shut it down, burn it down.

But I also believe that like, undoing the monster as we are seeing in live time is not a given, and it's not guaranteed. And yet still, like, we have to find our liberation. And sometimes it is a little like, you know what, fuck off, like, fuck off.

Like, I can create liberation within my community. I can create it within my family. I can create it for the next generation that hopefully amplifies that liberation so that we just continue moving it forward.

And, like, hopefully, at a certain point, all the oppressors will be jailed or dead. And that's what we can hope for, as they often are over time, you know, like your favorite person once said, the arc of history is long, but it bends towards justice. But it was a Martin Luther King quote.

Oh, I know.

Raya's favorite person. She's got big problems with Martin Luther King Jr. I do.

Him and I have beef. We really do. And it runs deep.

It's a deep beef. I'm like, I will always shout out Byron Rustin more than I would ever, ever associate with Martin Luther King. So, I love it.

So, but I think that, like, that is the piece of like, yeah, like, find the people you love and be liberated within them and then allow that to, like, grow, you know?

And the people that I love are Connor Storrie and Hudson Williams.

I mean, because how can you not? Okay, so we're going to take a commercial break to show everybody the Heated Rivalry edit that I think is like, whether you've seen the show or not, this is all you have to watch. Like, it is literally like the gateway.

This is the marijuana to the hair. This is the gateway drug. This is the joint your friend passes you, like, one night at a party and you're like, oh, it's fine.

I'll just take a hit. And then like two months later, you're in like a weird basement, like with a needle in your arm. And you're like, what the fuck just happened to me?

How did I get here?

And it's Heated Rivalry.

It's just, it's just the lights from the club.

And you're just sitting there like, what the fuck?

You're like Shane with the lights on your face.

And you're like, how did I get here?

How did this happen? And you're just looking at Ilya from across the room. Oh, before I'm just, I'm gonna keep teasing the goddamn edit.

And then I'm like, one more thing, but one more thing. My favorite part, I was telling Raya, I watched episode five. So if you have not watched Heated Rivalry yet, episode five of Heated Rivalry is considered like one of the highest rated, still I haven't checked if it dropped, but it was like-

I doubt that it did.

I can't imagine it did. On IMDB is the highest rated episode of television of all time, like critics choice, 10 out of 10 kind of situation, because it really is like the most perfect. I will always say how the fuck they fit all of that into like the 55 minutes of that episode, and yet never made it feel rushed.

It was like slow. It was like a warm bath, and yet you lived a lifetime, and yet it was like both like spun you around, and yet held you held you tight in its arms.

Yeah, that I remember when, because I watched it live.

Are you crazy? That's crazy brains.

That I remember though, Jacob posted on his story, I want to say, if I remember correctly. And he goes, because all the episodes before that were like 30 to 35 to 45 minutes. And he goes, coming up is this week is going to be 55 minutes.

And everyone went, you're kidding. Because what are you going to do in like extra 10 minutes? But also he did everything in the extra 10 minutes.

Like I actually like 10 minutes is not that long, but he changed my life with 10 more minutes. Like that was wild. Like I just, the absolute ecstatic, joyful feelings when he announced that was crazy.

Like TikTok was blowing up.

Well, and I think it does go to show. Like there is something about, although everybody should have the money that they need to make the things that they need to do. So I, you know, shoestring budgets kind of can be romanticized too sometimes.

But I think in this case, like the idea that he had to be so economical with his shots, he had to be so economical with his story telling because he literally had the economics behind it that was like, he didn't have the money for fucking fluff, you know? And so he had to be able to truly turn it on a dime. And that's what you see in that 55 minutes, to be able to tell, to have that depth and width of story telling within that amount of time.

And yet, like had he had a big budget in 55 minutes, you actually would have felt more fluff in it, right? But because you don't, you have just these nailed moments that are like, whoa, you know, that still have pace. I mean, like I say, you luxuriate Tampa Bar scene, which I will go, I will go full to the mat on as possibly the best scene ever filmed in cinematic history of just like, how do you capture, I mean, talk about pheromones on the screen, but how do you capture a relationship and what is on paper a very banal conversation, right?

Like that conversation is so boring. You would be like, what the fuck? Like, it's like, I hired a personal stylist.

Oh.

It's like max like 40 words. And you're just like, what the hell? But it goes on forever.

But it goes on forever. And it's like, and it's like, it is that it's like a fucking jacuzzi. Like the heat is there, like the heart, the, I mean, it makes you, breaks your heart.

It puts it back together. It breaks your heart again. It does so much to you in that space of two people just having a battle and conversation, which is life, you know?

And it's why the budget allowed for that granularity too. I think of why it feels so real is because it is, it's being filmed real, you know? It doesn't have the gloss of a budget that allows you to have that remove, you know?

It's why they left so many moments in that weren't in the script, because it was just them, you know? And it's what gives that detail. And I think as storytellers, it's that reminder of like, the more we express the detail of human life, the more we connect emotionally into story, because then we're somatically engaged in a way that like, if the story is over here, we can't actually have that relationship to it.

You know, I will say, because you'd mentioned, I, hey, first time for a first new thought about keeping my glory.

Is that a here?

I don't know, but I was just thinking about it, because I was thinking about how, oh, what are the two men that are actually gay, but everyone thinks that they are Ben and Matt. Ben and Matt. They just did a movie together.

And Matt was saying he was frustrated because they needed budget, they needed money, and they, I think they did a deal with Netflix, but Netflix made them put in a lot of stuff that they didn't want to have put in to the movie, and that was really frustrating for him. And I think what's so, with the money thing, but what's so magical about this show particularly is it's lean, there is no fat. And I think what we've gotten used to with telephones is Netflix makes, not just Netflix, like all other places, but Netflix, I'm saying it because that's what Matt was working with, was that they make shows that you can watch while also on your phone and still pay attention and still get the gist of what's going on.

Heated Rivalry is not a show that you can watch while on your phone because 90% of the interactions are eye contact alone. And if you miss that, you miss the love story. If you miss the silent moments that they have where they're looking across the room at each other, trying not to make it obscenely obvious that they're interested in each other, you miss things.

Like we have done so many rewatches because someone will be like, I see like a hint of like a smirk in the corner of the screen for like 0.2 seconds. And you're like, well, I have to go watch the whole episode. And I have to watch the moment where like his ankle gets kissed.

I forgot that I missed that. Like, and that's what's so addicting about it is because it's it's engaging your brain. There is no fat there to look away.

Like you have no room to look away. You always have to be watching if you blink you're missing something. Yeah, and I think that's a version of television and even movies that we haven't seen in a while.

And like this is such a testament to why actual good writing is so necessary and why we need shows that are actively engaging, not just shows you can throw on and look away from.

Oh my god. I love your first thought on it. Okay, just everybody should know if you're obsessed, like little, you have a filing cabinet in your head, filled with data facts and theories and opinions that is like so ginormous, it's amazing.

It's amazing I still remember my children's names at this point, let's face it. So, okay, so much there. I just...

Okay, now it's like not a podcast, you are just a Raya and Kristen conversation. Okay, first of all, Matt and Ben are Shane and Ilya.

Yeah.

Oh my God, Matt is such a fucking bottom.

And he has bottom yearning eyes.

He does have bottom yearning eyes. They are in love and I mean that.

And Ben is so Ilya, like he's the one who loves him more and first, but is also like...

Because he's the bisexual one.

Yes, and he's incapable of articulating it.

And so he has to drink himself to death because he just can't be out and proud for his deep and unabiding love.

That's why he's always caught smoking on the corner and looking depressed.

Yes!

Wait, was Heated Rivalry just Matt and Ben fanfiction this whole time?

It might be.

And now I'm just yelling like I did when we talked Heated Rivalry.

That is so funny.

Oh my god, that is so funny.

Does that make JLo Svetlana?

Oh my god, this is the best theory I've ever heard.

I will never see the world the same way again.

I just want you to know.

Never. Never. Okay.

Well, we're going to like, you and I, we'll just have like a second podcast all about how Heated Rivalry is actually Ben and Matt fanfiction. I mean, that alone is the funniest. I could fucking thing.

I could get into that.

I could really get into that.

I think you should just focus our socials on like photoshopping Ben and Matt's faces onto Heated Rivalry.

Perfect. I can do that in my free time.

Yes, I can.

Poor Vianna is going to be like, wait, what happened to the social media and why is it?

We're a Heated Rivalry fan page now. That's all we are.

If so, we're a Matt and Ben fanfic, Heated Rivalry fan page mashup. So it's even more confusing. But from the story side, oh my god, forever that.

And also I love the, yes, like it is the silence, it is the pauses. And I've been like, I've been sharing this a lot with writers recently about when Bat Bunny won the Grammy for the record of album year, whatever they call it. And he sat there, right?

And he didn't get up. And like, you can feel the room, like you can feel the presence of that room. Like at first have anxiety about it.

Like you can feel them being like, get up, you're supposed to get up and walk to the stage. That's what everybody does, right? But he holds the moment past the awkwardness and into the awe, where then you actually feel like the energy of the room just like come down and like actually sit in that moment with him and be like, whoa, like he's holding this and I need to hold it too.

And I think that's the thing about like the attention and diseconomy of like where we have like stopped recognizing that holding our attention is actually really valuable and it's not just valuable. Like obviously it's fucking valuable. How much money is HBO and Crave making right now?

Like it is actually valuable. It actually makes money because we show up for it and we watch it again and we watch it again. We're there for it.

We want to pay attention. Like don't just let us rush to the stage, you know? And it's amazing.

You know, V and I were actually talking this morning about Bad Bunny and all these different people that are like, you know, really like creating this space around what it means to be human and like modeling for us this just like incredible, like just exceptionalism of like humanity of like, yeah, we sit in the awe of the moment, you know? And I think like as every day we're waking up in these horrors and these terrible stories of terrible men, like it's, and women, because it's not like, you know, there's plenty of enabling and violence in there too, like especially white women and white men. And we're also though seeing these other versions of who we can be where we actually are beautiful and lovely and grounded and we don't have to say anything.

We can just stare into each other's eyes.

That's like where a lot of romance actually lies. Because this is a weird bit of information that I hold in my brain. But one of the things that often happens on couples therapy is a therapist will ask you to look into your partner's eyes because it allows you to see who they actually are behind the anger that you may feel for them at that moment.

Because there's a reason we say the eyes are the window to the soul, right? You can tell a lot about a person by looking them in the eyes for a couple seconds. And I think that that is a lost art in a way.

Like when I go to dinner, we'll be talking to someone to look at their phone. It's like we're constantly looking away from each other. And even when we are in, and I catch myself doing it too.

Like I think that we struggle so much with being present because arguably the reality of the world around us makes it really difficult to be present. Like I understand why we're trying to get away from what is actively happening around us. But I think that that almost adds to the problem.

Because if we're looking away, then we're not really acknowledging it. But at the same time, we're also missing out on like the beauty that exists around and outside of it. And so I think that it is a bit of a double edged sword, but it's better to try and try and look in each other's eyes and be present than look away.

No, I mean, having done that, that really fun and excruciating activity in marriage counseling myself at one point, I would like, which I just, I literally cracked up laughing and then hid my face in a pillow. That was actually my response to that activity. And my and Terry was trying and I was like, but I think it's because and I think it is like, I think that is what romantic love does offer us is it is that pathway.

Like, you know, I've had relationships where I was really romantically in love with somebody and could stare into their eyes like, I mean, had those experiences. And I think that's the thing is that like, we've all disconnected from that experience so much that, in fact, it's showing up in our daily lives and how we navigate and going and going back to Heated Rivalry. I feel like as our time is wrapping up here, we will actually end on the edit that I teased the entire fucking episode.

Perfect.

But as we see in this edit, I think that this reminder that romantic love is not a fantasy, that it actually exists, that humans meet each other and have such a biochemical reaction to one another, that they want to look into each other's eyes. They want to be patient and they want to be present. And this is part of who we are.

And I think, though, late-stage capitalism and social media and horrific monsters have made us disconnect from that. And I do think it is biological, right? We're trying to protect ourselves in this, and we're afraid.

But what it has shown us is that it's worth the fear, because what you get on the other side isn't just the love itself, but it's actually the opening for hope and love of this world and the reminder of why we're here. And so I do think that's why we're all echoing that. And I think somebody had said this on social media, it was a very woo take on Heated Rivalry, but we will start manifesting more things in our life because we've opened portals through this TV show.

I'm just going to end like a complete lunatic. That's how I'm going to close the podcast. Like I have lost my mind.

That's how, but like, but I do think that because we're touching again, it's the Eros. Like we are literally like climbing back into the warm water of passion and romance and hope and dreams. And that gets reflected because we just enter our day differently.

Like you and I wake up every day and consume our Heated Rivalry content before we can begin. But like we become somatically resourced, grounded, excited. Like there is a right, a pep in our step because of this show, which does actually manifest into real world like consequences.

And so I do hope for your generation, it means more of you begin to fall in love because you know what? You guys deserve it. And you've had a really fucking terrible time.

And I'm sorry that you've had such a terrible version of what this life can be and you all deserve to fall in love and have your Heated Rivalry romance.

I hope for that for us too. But at the very least, it's our anti-depressant for right now because a lot of us are on anti-depressants, even though we probably should be. So we'll just we'll take Heated Rivalry and we'll start there.

And then hopefully we can go up. I will say one of my favorite quits is that Heated Rivalry made me feel like I lived in Obama's America again. And I think that sums up Heated Rivalry.

If you're on the fence at this point in the podcast about watching it and you want to feel like that, if we haven't convinced you now, I mean, I don't know that anything will.

But perhaps this video, we're going to show you this video and then we're going to wrap up with our famous ending, which is how we've closed out our podcast since the beginning and how we will always close out our podcast. But first, a message from our sponsors. A fantastic edit by Alexi from TikTok.

I fucking lied to them for so many years.

I fucking lied to them and now my dad just walks in on me.

This, this is my fucking nightmare.

This is my actual fucking nightmare, Ilya.

Okay, then maybe it's time to wake up, yes?

You've got Ottawa's own Shane Hollander. He may not be the most sociable.

Shane Hollander, I wanted to introduce myself.

And you've got Russia's Ilya Rozenov.

Good in his own room, not exactly like in his opponent's room. I don't think I can keep pretending I don't like you anymore. You don't like me?

Yeah, I do.

Was it different?

Was it bad?

What?

Was it better?

Say it again in Russian, please.

Yeah. Yeah. Love you.

I think I speak Russian at this point.

So if you haven't been convinced by now, and I will say, so Raya and I just yesterday found the original Heated Rivalry trailer that Crave had clearly done, or who knows who had done this trailer, but it was like the actual trailer for the show, which was a different show that either of us have ever watched. Like we were like, I was like, what is that show?

I was genuinely, and I told Kristen this last night, I genuinely thought that she sent me like a shitty edit. And I was just like, hey, Queen, I know the edits that we send to each other back and forth. This is not on our level, and I don't know why we're sending it my way.

And then I realized you posted it, and I was like, wait a fucking second. I know, is this actually the trailer?

And I was shocked, I was stunned. That was crazy.

Now, the funniest is that I was in such a hurry, I sent it to you with no context, and I literally after was like, she's gonna think I've just sent her the worst fucking edit.

Yeah.

And then I was like, ah, she'll figure it out. But then as you did, because what that edit was, was actually the version of the show that Netflix would have made.

Yes.

You know? It's like, that's the version. It was like a shitty show that would play in the background.

And not, I mean, I think there's fantastic shows. I'm like, Netflix too. Some Netflix shows are amazing.

But it was like, they would have just been a shitty show that was in the back. And then you're like, I don't know, some silly like hockey sex thing. I don't know, like whatever.

But that chasing Cars edit is this show that we've watched. Like, that's the edit. That's the show that we are all in love with.

So that's home.

That is home.

That is home.

All right, everybody go watch Heated Rivalry. It will make you a better person. It'll make you love life more.

And it will make you a better storyteller. Because I think at the end of the day, as storytellers, it's just such a beautiful lesson in that. So without further ado, we're going to finish our show today.

This is a very long episode, but I mean, how could we not? But we're gonna roll out how we always do with our very famous ending.

Heated Rivalry edition.

Not just the tip at all, people.

But so my writing tip is hold the moment as a writer. It takes confidence to slow down. It takes confidence to actually leave the silence in.

And it takes confidence to also like give it all you got and not be afraid of what it's going to do or how it's going to impact you. I think the more that we write from that little lizard brain inside, the more we connect into our own story for ourselves, but also that our story connects to other people. So take the pause.

The pause is what takes you from awkward to awe. And that is what great story telling is.

Yeah, I love that. I think my writing tip is live life passionately. Bring passion and whimsy into your life a little bit more, because I think we all know that in a large part of writing is living.

But I think right now we've been existing and not living. So go out and find your peace and your joy and live.

I love it. And just have fun. You just got to be crazy loons on a deck.

Balloon.

Balloons. It's, you know, we create from joy and we create joy. So thanks, everybody, for joining us for our amazing first episode back as Write Now.

And if you haven't already started, you should start writing now. You can do that through lots of ways with us. We have group courses, retreats, and of course, our inspired publishing with Simon and Schuster.

So reach out to us if you were ready to start your creative journey. And yeah, because that's all we got, folks, our own personal liberation and how we can liberate each other. And how Heated Rivalry has liberated all of us.

To a brighter tomorrow. Indeed.

This has been Write Now, brought to you by Rise Literary. Thanks for tuning in. If you enjoyed today's episode, don't forget to rate us five stars.

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Until then, remember, it's your time to write now.

From Write Now.: We're Back and More Heated Than Ever with Kristen and Raya, Feb 26, 2026
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